Yamaha WR250R and WR250X Forum

jono · Member

Hi Help with no starting issue

jono · Member

Well just to update you all, I ran a check on the coil pack with the info found in the wonderful service manual supplied by the awfully nice and very helpful totallyttrs.
It looks like it could be at fault and a new one is on its way to me as I type .
I will let you all know what the out come is.

jono · Member

Well just in case any one is interested here is an up date
New plug = no start
New coil = no start
Cleaned up conector at the head stock = no start
Flush the petrol and replace = No start
New battery = No start
Air filter off and easy start down the carb and still = no start .
Im going to now have a look at the crank position sensor now and all the cables to it .
When I run the diagnostic on the speedo it spins up the fuel pump but does not turn it off .
Im going to run it again this week end to see if it shows any fault codes .
its real odd there is a spark at the plug there is the smell of petrol at the pipe just nothing going on .
If the CPS is faulty its a new stator, the old one was replaced last summer under the recall that Yamaha made .
The replacement one if I have to buy it will be £180.00 which will rather hurt Im hopeful it might be covered by a warranty .

Brian · Admin

Hi Jono!

No lack of interest here - just haven't got any solutions to offer disbelief

There comes a time when it would be cheaper in time and parts to let a Yamaha dealer crawl over it.......

If it won't fire with EasyStart then that tends to mean no spark. If there was a spark it would fire/pop/spit back or summat even if timing way out. I have experienced situations (not with the WRR) where you get a spark outside the engine but it's not strong enough to spark under compression when plug refitted. I know it sounds implausible but new spark plugs can be faulty....

As a double check that you haven't missed anything, have a look through this web page http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/what-to-do-when-your-motorcycle-wont-start

Brian

jono · Member

Hi Brian thanks for the message Im sorry didnt mean to offend any one with my last post .
It really is strange. I could swop back the plug and see what it does do . I must admit I have had a plug fail under load before so it could be that .
I will run the speedo diagnostic again just in case it throws something up . On one USA site one owner suggested unplugging the ECU for a day to reset it which I might try .
Its the sort of fault I really want to find I would hate for it to fix its self as I don't think I would trust it again.
Looking on line its happened to several owners but no one ever posts the end of the story.
As you say it might be a trip to my local Yamaha dealer just to see what is a foot .
Thanks again and I hope you have a great weekend .

SteveT · Veteran Member

No offence taken Jono.

Like Brian, I had nothing to help with. I wish I had! But very interested to read your posts. Do let us know when you get to the bottom of it.

jono · Member

Hi all after a weekend of poking around on the bike and on line and so far I have found as the police would say " a new line of inquiry ".
When I ran the Diagnostic check it came up with error code 19 which is side stand switch. As this was removed some time before I owned the bike i have looked around on line and found a link to a guy who had an issue with the main key switch there are 4 cables going to it two carry 12volts and the other two link the safety kit to the ECU I will check the switch tonight.

Grassroots · Veteran Member

Hi ya Jono,

I've been keenly watching, but felt i had little to offer that hadn't already been said. Seeing as you now mention the side stand switch being a possibility, thought i might chime in.

You said that the side stand switch was removed before you owned the bike which is why i think it's maybe worth a double check. I too have removed my side stand switch. It's a good idea to do so, because when you hit the whoops at speed or land a jump, there's a tendency for the side stand to bounce a little. If it moves enough, it kills the power to the engine at a most dangerous, inconvenient moment and you'd be liable to take a tumble .

Any way, have a look as to how the previous owner terminated the plug of the side stand switch where it plugs to the bike. If i remember correctly, i cut the switch off and removed it. Then took the connector plug with two loose ends, tied and soldered the two ends together, then plugged the newly soldered loop that i'd created back into the bike to make the ECU think the stand is always up. If the previous owner did the same as myself, it might do you well to check the loop created hasn't been broken or damaged in any way.

Hope that might be of some help buddy and just shout back if you get stuck.

Ciao for now,

Paul.

jono · Member

Hi Paul I checked out all the wires last night but still nothing I did how ever find 3 of these little things which I think must be a hang over from the wiring loom being used on different model. They were all covered up and tapped in place but might be worth poke around. Im finding out a lot about this bike I never knew that it is one cylinder of an R1.

Grassroots · Veteran Member

Hmmm... I'll have a poke around mine tomorrow in the same area and see what comes to mind in regards to your photo above.

One cylinder of a super R1. Love it ! biggrin

WRSteve · Member

Very interesting thread and hope you get it sorted soon. Sorry I have no advice, other than check your warranty and fingers crossed you can get Yamaha to sort it.

Steve

tomasn · Member

Interesting. If there is a spark, fuel and air, it should start. Maybe problems is inside of an engine? Rings, valves. Try cylinder leak down test www.youtube.com/watch

Grassroots · Veteran Member

Hi ya Jono,

Not sure if this info will help, or if it is all stuff you already know, so apologies in advance.

If i remember correctly, below is a shot of the loop i created when removing the side stand switch. Sorry for all the filth....

20170126_130729[1].jpg

The shot that you show looks suspiciously like the plug in for the EXUP eliminator if you've had it removed...? I have a little EXUP elminator block that plugs in there (if that is the correct location i'm thinking of). The metal clip that appears to be pushed into your plug might be worth puling and giving a little clean up to improve contact. Below is another shot of mine showing a taped up blue square, that if i do remember correctly, is the EXUP eliminator...

20170126_130904[1].jpg

I hate to say it, as similarly to yourself i don't like to be beaten, but the rest of the guys may well be right in suggesting it could be time to call the big boys in and get Yamaha to take a look cry .

Very much luck to you as always buddy and i'll watch this space as to your findings. I'm still convinced that it'll be such a small issue holding you back from enjoying this mighty and generally reliable little machine .

All the best,

Paul.

P.S If it helps for me to cut open the blue insulation tape of what i suspect to be my EXUP eliminator for a closer look, just shout and i'll get on it for you.

TerryK · Member

Paul did the removal off the EXUP stop the lack of power down low ? Did you remove it completly or just trick it ?

Terry

jono · Member

Hi Paul thanks for you input, its lovely looking a bike that is used in the mud biggrin .

Im looking at spending a bit of time on it this week end between looking after the 5 women in my life and looking at a new garage that come with a house.

The bike still runs a stock pipe so all the bolt on bits are still in place .

Just to let you all know I did a comp test and was very pleased to see she came up to the spec given by Yamaha which given the age and use she has made me feel she is worth trying to fix.

However after the weekend I think that it might well become a trip to my local Yamaha dealer.

I will keep you posted .

-- Edited by jono on Friday 27th of January 2017 10:14:24 AM

Grassroots · Veteran Member

Hi ya guys,

Terry.... I certainly have had no problems with power down low having removed the EXUP. People seem to have different opinions about this subject though. I find having removed the EXUP and AIS, the bike is extremely snappy and quick to respond. I have the Leo Vince exhaust like yourself. I chose this exhaust because i was able to plug in the O2 sensor which will constantly give information back to the ECU.
When i hear of people in America complaining about removing the EXUP and then having problems with their bikes bogging out and stalling, or just lacking power down low, i have always wondered if this might be because they don't have an O2 sensor on the American WR's and then maybe they also program their fuel controllers incorrectly giving poor performance....just my two cents as they say smile

Jono...Ha ha, you certainly have your hands full buddy, and that's just how life should be smile .

Huge congratulations on finding the compression test has come back all good. It's another great sign that the issue may relate to some sort of small, inexpensive electrical gadget, and not a big, expensive mechanical nightmare.

Hope this weekends tinkering has been going well for you, but if not, that Yamaha will work their magic for you later in the week.

Unfortunately now it's onto the next post for me today which is sadly going to also be in the "What broke" section...grrr cry

Paul.

-- Edited by Grassroots on Sunday 29th of January 2017 10:33:15 AM

jono · Member

Well I have just replaced the fuel relay on the poor bike and still nothing . This morning I checked the spark with a tester and it proved that the spark is strong. So Im taking the air box off tonight and have a go with the easy start right into the carb just to see if she does fire .
The lovely lady in my life did suggest that maybe it was time for a new bike but I still want to get her running, however just in case who wants a project bike ?
Im looking on eBay just to see what I fancy

-- Edited by jono on Wednesday 1st of February 2017 02:41:45 PM

Grassroots · Veteran Member

So sorry to hear you still struggling Jono. Did you get the chance to drop it into Yamaha?

A newer WRR on the horizon maybe?

This might be considered blasphemy on our beloved WRR/ X site in regards to a different bike, but if money was no object have you seen the 2017 Beta Xtrainer 390 RR? I say 2017, as i believe there have been some huge improvements on the suspension over the 2016.

I'm sure there must be some mechanical whizz out there that could get your current WRR rolling again.

Good luck as always,

Paul.

jono · Member

Hi Paul thanks for your kind words .Im now looking at the injection side of things , my main issue is finding free time .
As for a new bike I'm not sure what I would go for, I have to say I have never really felt the WRR fitted my needs after riding a WR450 for a few years it was always going to be a hard act to follow .
I'm starting to think it's could be the ECU which might be game over as the new part is £400 .
If that the case I might sell on as a non runner or break for parts ( minus the ECU ) I'm sure with the lack of spare parts out there I will have a few takers .

As for the Beta my local dealer has them in and they do look very nice , my only worry would be parts if Beta fold you are stuck Big time .

I think I will stick with Blue and try for another 450 or maybe give a CRF a go . I did try KTM a go a few years back but never again people started saying I was having an affair with the lady in Fowlers parts store, I spent more time there than at home .

-- Edited by jono on Sunday 5th of February 2017 09:09:34 AM

Grassroots · Veteran Member

... I wouldn't be surprised that if it came to it and you had to break the bike up for spares and repairs, you'd probably achieve a really tidy sum of money to put into your next ride. Still, i have my fingers crossed for you that it doesn't end up needing to come to that.

I hear you in regards to Beta. I'll be watching over the coming years as to how they stand up in the competitive market of current times. Cracking machines though i must say.

KTM can poke it and take a running jump biggrin . I'd personally consider them to be like having a Ferrari. Yes very beautiful, yes very advanced and tough to beat, but at what cost to the individual that has to maintain and keep them on the road. Something I think all WRR owners have in common, is that we love to spend the majority of our time out there ridding and enjoying the thrills of the trail instead of wasted hours in the workshop day in day out, along with avoiding the constant threat of having to remortgage the house to be able to keep them running biggrin .

I also hear you re: finding the time as i don't think i'm going to be out myself today....

Now where's that damn paint brush got to?

Paul smile .

jono · Member

Hi all well,time for an update. Over the weekend I pulled out the fuel rail and injector out once out I connected the fuel and power and it give a very strong spray when it needed to all the jets were clear . Looking through the workshop manual it suggested that failure to start could be due to a blocked pilot air passage so last night the carb came out and was given a good clean the passage was a little gummy so we will see when it goes back in .

SteveT · Veteran Member

You need to do a Basil Fawlty on it and give it a damn good thrashing! Personally, I'd have taken a lump hammer to it by now.

beer · Member

do you get the engine to spin ? will the injector system prime? the kill switch follow the wires down to the connector and check it for corrosion .... seems a common fault . if not will it bump start.

jono · Member

Cam red line.jpg Hi all well last night I found something which might shed a little light on why she won't start. Just to add that the photo shows the engine off from TDC to show the marks .

The chain is tight and when the crank is TDC the inlets match up its the exhaulst one is about 2 teeth out . Cam red line.jpg

-- Edited by jono on Friday 17th of February 2017 03:47:20 PM

SteveT · Veteran Member

Have you tried turning the engine by 360 degrees? As it's a four stroke, everything only lines up on every other revolution, not every revolution. I can't see how the valve timing could possibly have "slipped", so the only way it could be wrong is if it was assembled wrong. In which case, it would never have run since it was assembled. Did you buy it after someone else had been fiddling with it?

jono · Member

Hi thats what I thought but I have been looking and it something that happens to a few bikes. I span the engine over several times but it came up the same . I reset the chain and put the cam tensioner in but every time I turn it anti clockwise ( as per manual) the slack in chain become very large and the chain jumps off.
Tonight Im going to turn the engine clock wise to see if it works.
The chain looks ok and the marks line up which points to it being good or replaced.
One article I read suggested that if you push your bike backwards when its in gear it can loosen the tensioner off which in turn can let the chain slip . As I alway roll the bike out of the garage backwards its possible it might have been in gear .

SteveT · Veteran Member

I'm very surprised they say turn it anticlockwise, it's always in the direction of normal rotation. Is that the official Yamaha manual? Even if you did, the chain shouldn't become slack. This is beginning to look like the chain tensioner isn't working properly. I haven't read how you do it on a Yamaha, but normally I think you fit the tensioner, then release a bolt to allow the tensioner to push on the chain. Then (according to bike), you either leave the bolt loose (with a locknut) or tighten it up. That way you have permanent automatic adjustment or you loosen it and retighten it at given service intervals, depending on how the manufacturer has designed it.

I wouldn't think Yamaha would have allowed a design flaw where the tensioner can slip if you push the bike backwards in gear.

It's a complicated problem isn't it. I admire your perseverance.

jono · Member

Hi there, yes it is the Yamaha workshop manual it does have a few mistakes in it and this is a big one.
The WR250r tensioner is an auto one it has to be wound in by hand and it then locks in that state until you move the crank when it springs out. The spring feels good on it but it might be a case on getting a manual one at some point ( if I keep the bike )
Last night I span the engine over on clock wise and every thing fell in to place and she looks like its all good to go .
Tonight its the final push and hitting the start button. I really hope it works .
Its been interesting working on the WRR I have noticed that there are a few things that Yamaha didn't really think about, to get one of the tentensioner bolts out you have to pull out the starting motor which is easier if you take off the exhaust pipe and front pipe . There is a water feed to the throttle body, which on mine looks a bit grim. It's bolted on but Yamaha don't sell it as a replacement part so if it fails or gives issues the new throttle body is £500.
Still if nothing else it has given me hours of fun reading the manual and looking for parts on line.
If she starts its going to be a oil change for her I hate to think how much easy start and petrol has got past the piston.

Brian · Admin

Fingers crossed for you!

jono · Member

SHE LIVES at last she runs .
It did take a bit for her to fire up but she starts and restarts fine now .
I'm going to do an oil change tonight but it going to be a few days before I can get back on the road .

SteveT · Veteran Member

Result!! Well done. So what was it? The valve timing?

jono · Member

Thanks Steve yes it had to be the valve timing .
Time to get out and ride in the mud again .

Grassroots · Veteran Member

A huge congratulations to you Jono. I hope this weekend brings you good weather and you get back to enjoying the trails.

Well done sir,

Paul smile

jono · Member

Hi all I have just ridden into work and other that giving the idle a fiddle she is running perfect, in fact even better than before .
Thanks to you all for your input and help .
The mud is calling me and with a new back tyre I will be up to my ears in it .

philmedomsley · Member

Well done, great result. Glad your persistence payed off.